Date 2007/03/31 00:04:15
Name   체념토스
Subject   김택용 빌드의 비밀
체념토스님의 김택용 선수 분석글입니다.
1,2,3번으로 나뉘어 있으므로 딱히 더 나누지는 않겠습니다.
많이 참여해주세요:D


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1. 원질럿 원드라군

원질럿 원드라군은..

기존 원게이트 본진 플레이 형태에서 원질럿 원드라군을 뽑아서..
(테크와 굉장히 공격적인 체재)

첫 질럿으로 입구를 막고 첫 드라군으로 정찰하러 온 오버로드를 쫓아내는 식의 플레이를
의미하는데...   예전 강민선수가 잘보여줬었다.

하지만 더블넥 이후 이러한 플레이는 없었다.

그 이유는 저플전에서 가장 대세적인 빌드 공발업 질럿찌르기의 최적화시키기 위해서..
질럿을 모으고 공업을 누르기 때문이다. (템플러로 저그의 모든걸 맞춤하는 빌드)

장점은 최적화된 타이밍을 노려 공발업 질럿으로 찌르면서.. 바로 템플러로 연계되는 것이 장점

단점은.. 역시 뭐니뭐니해도.. 질럿최적화 때문에 .... 오버로드를 견제할것이 아무것도 없다
(프로토스 본진의 한창동안 둥둥 떠있다.)  또 입구를 좁히기 위해 포지가 앞에 나와 있으므로...
공업 돌리는 타이밍을 저그의 오버로드로 확인을 한다면... 충분히 타이밍을 예측할수가 있다.


김택용 빌드의 첫번째 노하우는 기존의 질럿최적화 전략에서 벗어나...
예전 원게이트플레이를 했었을 때처럼..

앞마당이후 케논 이후...
게이트에서 질럿 한마리를 뽑고
사이버네틱스코어가 완성된후 바로 드라군을 한마리를 뽑는다.

-더블 넥서스 이후 원질럿 원드라군의 활용

정찰을 나간 프로브의 정보로... 저그가 굉장히 부자식으로 플레이 했을시... 질럿 한마리
찌르면서 저글링과 성큰을 강요하는 움직임을 하거나...

저그의 저글링 난입이나 그러한 극초반을 넘기기 위해서 질럿을 사용한다.(여차하면 질럿을 더뽑아도 좋다)

사이버넥티스 이후.. 드라군을 뽑아서.. 저그의 오버로드를 쫓아내거나 잡으므로... 저그의 초반 가장 큰 이득이라고 할수 있는.. 정보력을 봉쇄 시키고.. 저그의 시야에서 벗어나 맘편히 플레이를 한다 (-_-;a)



2. 커세어 다크 최적화와 수비방법

많은 분들이 김택용 선수의 빌드는.. 커세어와 다크로 연계가 되기전 까지.. 캐논과 소수 질럿으로 방어하기 때문에... 이 타이밍의 저그가 찌르면 약하다고 하지않냐고 반문한다.

하지만... 다르게 생각해보면 스타게이트와 아둔 (후 템플러아케이브) +게이트 하나더
만 올릴수 있다면..

남는 미네랄은 전부 캐논으로 소환이 되도 상관없다.(더블넥서스한 토스)

이제껏 토스유저들은 항상 최적화 목매달려 있었기 때문에.. 캐논짓는 걸 아까워하고 유닛으로 막고 싶어하겠지만.

이 빌드는 커세어와 다크가 제 타이밍에만 나온다면  미네랄을 어떻게 활용해도 상관없다.
(실제로 김택용 선수는.. 여차하는 느낌만 나면 케논 3~4이상 지어놓았다)


그렇다면 커세어와 다크는 어떤 의미를 갖을까?

테란이 저그 상대로 더블 커맨드를 하기위해..
원배럭스를 짓고 마린을 꾸준히 뽑으면서 커맨드센터를 짓는다.

하지만 원배럭 상태에서 마린을 뽑으면 아무리 뽑아도 소수 일뿐이다.. 저그가 그것을 눈치를 채서
발업 저글링 다수를 모은다면...

앞마당의 커맨드 센터를 내리려는 그 순간  발업저글링으로 덮쳐 앞마당을 지연시키거나...
게임을 끝내게 만들수가 있다.

아마 스타크래프트 오리지널이였으면 원배럭 플레이는 자살행위로 받아들일수가 있었겠지만...

우리가 하고 보는 건 브루드워이기 때문에... 테란은 그것의 대비한 또다른 것을 준비 한다.

바로 아카데미이다.
가스와 아카데미를 지어서...  메딕과 파이어벳을 뽑아 그 위험한 타이밍을 넘길뿐더러...
오히려 저그가 맘편히 드론 뽑고 부자스럽게 하지 하도록.. 러쉬를 가서 성큰을 강요하고 난입해서 커다란 피해를 주기도 한다.

이와 같이 아카데미역할을...
커세어 다크가 해주는 것이다.

상대의 공격을 어느 정도 수의 케논으로 막으면서... 커세어와 다크를 뽑아 그 러쉬를 무력하게 해주고 또 상대가 문어발식 확장을 하고 있을 시 그것을 끊어주는 역활.

또 커세어 2기~3기 이 타이밍의 다크템플러 두마리가 등장함으로... 여차하여 입구 쪽 오버로드가 잡히는 순간... 다크템플러들이 난입을 시도한다.

이것은 올인성 전략이 아니라 물량폭팔하는 그 시점까지 중간다리를 해주는 역활이므로..
크게 피해를 못주었다고 하더라도...

프로토스는 이미 테크를 갖추게 된것의 만족하면 된다

-커세어의 의미

커세어가 나온다는 것은 여러가지 의미가 될수가 있다.
저그의 상황 정찰... 오버로드 사냥으로 인구수 트러블을 일으키는 행위...  등등

그러나 그것 말고도 한가지 더 말하고 싶은 것은..

바로 히드라를 강요한다는 것이다.

항상 프로토스는 저그의 효율성 때문에 큰피해를 받는다..

그것의 대표적인 것은 저글링이며... 이 50원의 2개인 저글링이 그렇게 얄미울수가 없다.
또 업그레이드가 충실하게 된 저글링은... 가히 스타크래프트 사기 유닛이라고도 명칭할 정도로
위력은 엄청나다.

그래서 토스 잘잡는 저그유저들의 모습을 보면.. 대개 장기전으로 판을 이끌고... 저글링 대량생산 체재형태로 만들어.. 엄청난 양의 저글링과 울트라를 뽑아 토스를 압살시켜버리는 경기를 자주 보여준다.

토스 입장에서는 저그가 저글링보다 다른 유닛으로 상대해주는게 더 편하다.

하지만 저그가 그렇게는 해줄 것 같지는... 않고 그렇다면...
억지로 라도 뽑게 해줘야 하지 않겠나?

저그에게 히드라를 뽑게 해주는 방법은 간단하다.
바로 커세어를 뽑으면 된다.

저그가 스포어 잔뜩지어서 막을 생각이 아닌 이상..
히드라로 커세어를 막을 생각을 하게 된다.

저글링이 뛰어서 커세어를 공격하지 않는 이상..
보통은 히드라를 뽑는다 (뮤탈도 뽑을수 있겠지만..)

저그가 히드라를 뽑게 되면 토스는 리버,하이템플러를 뽑아도 좋고... 드라군을 뽑아도 좋다.
저글링보다 전투하는데 있어서 편하고 이득을 볼 가능성이 점점 더 생기는 것이다.



by rinizim

1. One Zealot and a Dragoon

'One Zealot and a Dragoon' takes the form of typical One Gateway play.

Nal_rA had shown us this technique many times in the past;
first Zealot barricading a ramp, and first Dragoon chasing away the scout Overlord.

But, this type of playing style was hardly found after double Nexus became common.

Protoss players started to garner as many Zealots as they can, and strived to perfect the timing of pushing Zerg with speed/attack+1 upgraded Zealot, for this build was the most widespread build. (A build that solely focuses on Templars to counter everything Zerg has to offer)

The beauty of this build is, no doubt, harassing the opponent aiming for that calculated timing with speed/attack+1 upgraded Zealots, and the swift transitioning to Teamplars.

The downside is, however controversial, that there is nothing to scare away the Overlord(it hovers over Protoss base for a significant period of time) due to massing Zealots. Also, since Forge is built as a barricade near the entrance, if Zerg catches the timing Protoss starts the attack upgrade, he can easily speculate the push timing.

Bisu's first savvy would be(distancing himself from the typical Zealot pushing build, and)  

Just like a one Gateway play would turn out to be, after warping a cannon in the frontyard, (Protoss would) warp a Zealot from the Gateway, and as soon as the Cybernetics Core is warped, a Dragoon would soon follow.


-utilizing one zealot and a dragoon after double Nexus.

While carefully processing all data the scout probe sends back, he'd utilize Zealot(s) either to make a feign harrassment with one Zealot, forcing Zerg more sunkens and Zerglings, if the Zerg economy seems to grow too rapidly;

or to stop Zerglings from penetrating, and to defend against such similar raids (It'd be just as good to pump out more Zealots, if the situation calls for them).

Upon completion of warping Cybernetics Core, the Dragoon will take down or chase away Overlord, and (the Protoss would) freely play the game out outside of Zerg's vision, already having shut down Zerg's scouting, probably Zerg's most favorable gain in early game.


2. Perfecting Corsair/Dark Templar and the defensive protocol.

Since Bisu focuses on defending with Cannons and few Zealots, many people question whether his build would be countered by Zerg's assault before it transitions to Cosair and Dark Templar.

But to think this from a different perspective, as long as a Stargate, an Adun (Templar Archive to follow), and an Additional Gateway are warped, it wouldn't matter if all remnant minerals are to be warped as Cannons (Protoss having went double Nexus).

Since all past Protoss players put their life on line for perfecting a build, and are thus stingy in warping cannons in thought they would rather defend with units, in this build, however, the minerals can be utilized in anyway as long as the Corsair and Dark Templar are warped at the right timing (Actually Bisu builds 3~4 cannons at the very scent of something fishy).

Now then, what part do Corsair and Dark Templar take?

If Terran were to build double Command Center against Zerg, he would steadily produce Marines from one Barracks while building a Command Center.

But, steady or not, Marines from one Barracks does not amount to much. And if Zerg were to catch that and mass Zerglings, Zerg can raid Terran's frontyard when Terran is about to land the Center delaying the expansion, or just end the game altogether.

In Starcraft original, one Barracks play is nothing short of an act of suicide, but since we're watching and playing Broodwar, Terran can prepare something else for that(Zergling raid).

It is Academy.
Having built Refinery and Academy, Terran would not only effectively defend during such risky timing with Medics and Firebats, but also push forward the Zerg to hinder him from producing Drones to get rich, forcing Sunkens, and from time to time pierce through, greatly debilitating the Zerg.

The Corsair Dark Templar takes on the exact task as the Academy; the Corsair Dark Templar's task to nullify such raids made(by Zerg) while Cannons have held them back, and to eradicate any and all of Zerg's expansions.

Also, since two Dark Templars are warped at 2~3 Corsair timing, the Templars will penetrate in any chance they get when Overlords near the entrance are killed.

Since this is not a do-or-die strategy, but rather a bridging to ensure the timing when mass production system would set in place, Protoss can be fully satisfied with just having all the tech buildings warped, even if Corsair Dark Templar did not inflict much damage.

-Corsair's Role

Producing Corsair can take many roles; scouting Zerg's current situation, hunting Overlords to trouble Zerg in its count, and etc.

But, one more thing I want to say is that Corsairs force the breeding of Hydralisks.

Protoss always take much damage due to the cost-effectiveness of Zerg.

The most notorious would be Zerglings. Those Zerglings, costing only 50cents per pair, can't be more despised. In addition, when upgraded accordingly, they pose great threat dubbed as imba units and nothing less.

Zerg players who dominates against Protoss would usually coordinate the match to a late game, ready his gameplay fit for mass production of Zerglings, and simply crush Protoss with Zerglings and Ultralisks.

So for a Protoss, it is much more convenient if Zerg counters with any other units besides Zerglings.

But, since the chance of that happening is slim, shouldn't Protoss force it somehow?

Forcing Zerg to breed Hydralisks is simple.
Protoss would have to simply warp Corsairs.

As long as Zerg isn't preparing to defend Corsairs with Spores all around,
Zergs would defend it with Hydralisks.

As long as the Zerglings aren't capable of jumping into air to attack Corsairs, Zergs normally breed Hydralisks. (They 'can' breed Mutalisks.)

When Zergs breed Hydralisks, Protoss can warp Reaver, and High Templar; Dragoons are just as good.
In any case, Protoss is much better off than fighting against swarms of Zerglings and it raises the probability of gaining more and more of an edge.






3. 빌드의 끝을 향해....

커세어와 다크템플러가 활약을 했다면... 이제 슬슬 토스는 게이트들을 늘리면서
물량을 폭팔시킬 준비를 하는데...

사실 이빌드의 (뱅미?)백미는 뭐니 뭐니해도 이시점쯤이라고 본다.

프로브와 커세어의 정찰로 저그의 모든 테크와 병력 조합을 판단해서...
병력을 갖춰야 하는데...

바로 가스를 어떻게 분배하는 냐가 핵심이 된다.
(김택용 빌드의 정말 강력한 점이.. 상대의 조합의 맞춰간다는 것을 들수가 있다)

일단 하이템플러의 사이오닉스톰업과 공업은 필수 이며...
(저그의 폭탄드랍을 대비해서 사이오닉 스톰은 해두는게 좋다)

상대가 럴커체재를 갖춰는지... 뮤탈을 뽑았는지.. 저글링의 비율은 어떠한지의 따라...

드라군 사업 발업질럿 커세어 공업등등등.. 가스를 분배하면 된다.
(예:마재윤과 한 블리츠 3경기에서 마재윤선수는 뮤탈을 사용하자 김택용 선수는 아콘 드라군을 갖췄다.)

까다롭긴 해도 자신의 판단의 따라서 병력을 조합하고 갖춰야 한다.
이것이 가장큰 핵심이기도 하고..

또 게이트웨이에서 물량이 모이고 템플러가 완벽히 준비 되었을 쯤에...
아까 포지에서 돌린 공업이 완료가 되어...

토스의 한방 타이밍이 더더욱 강력해진다.


그러나 이것이 김택용 맞춤 빌드의 끝일까?

그것이 아니다....

김택용 선수의 빌드의 끝은 바로 3번째 멀티에 있다.



김택용 vs 이제동 선수의 케스파 경기 신백두대간...

이제동 선수는... 김택용 선수의 다크 템플러를 의식해.. 오버로드의 속업과 저글링 발업 히드라 발업 등등을 하면서... 커세어를 막고 다크템플러 찾아 완벽히 무력화시켰다.

토스의 후속 병력 콤보를 맞이하여... 뒤로밀게 하는데 성공하였다.
상황은 이제동 선수가 더 좋을수 있는 상황...

하지만 믿기지 않는 일이 생겼다.

좀만 시간이 지나자.. 엄청난 수의 드라군이 나타나 온맵을 휩쓸기 시작했다.


케스파 캐스터와 해설은 단순히... 김택용의 저그전을 잘해서 이렇다는 둥 이야기 했지만..
그것의 힘은... 3번째 멀티였다.


한방병력이 갖춰진 김택용 선수는.. 진출 꽤하지만.. 무턱대고 진출하지 않는다.. 바로 뒤를 염두해고 세번째 멀티까지 준비하면서 멀티를 한다.

마치 원게이트 플레이를 하는 토스가 앞마당먹기 위해.. 템플러와 캐논을 건설하면서 앞마당을 가져가는 것처럼...

한방 병력으로 안전하게 3번째 멀티 방어가 어느정도 갖춰질때까지 보호하고 러쉬를 가기 때문에...

토스는 미래가 있고...더더욱 후속타가 더 무섭다.

저그는 토스의 한방병력을 잡았다고 안심하면 절대 안된다.



- 김택용의 빌드 장점+ -

저그의 오버로드를 초반부터 쫓아내기 때문에... 단순 다크 템플러가 커세어 뿐만아니라...
마재윤과 한 리버스템플에서 경기처럼 리버로도 갈수 있고...

또 모으고 세번째멀티지키면서 한방병력만이 아닌...셔틀 게릴라로만으로도
경기를 이끌어 갈수도 있고 커세어가 살아 있으면 나중에라도 커세어 다크로 언제든지 전환할수 있는 굉장히 유연한 빌드이다.


전투를 할때 커세어를 대동함으로 병력대 병력으로... 싸움 할때... 오버로드를 잡아줘
저그의 인구수 트러블을 유발시킬수 있다..
(블리츠에서 보여준 마재윤 선수의 히드라 댄스는 오버로드가 잡힌 저그의 슬픔을 표현한것이였다^^;;)


P.s PGR21 글쓰기제한이 풀어진것을 환영합니다!

p.s2 파이터포럼 김택용 인터뷰입니다.

3대0 압승을 거뒀다.
▶연습 과정에서 저그에게 좋은 빌드를 발견했다. 그것 때문에 어제 연습하면서 좌절도 많이 했다. '내일도 이렇게 지면 안되는데'라는 생각이 들었다. 오늘 마재윤 선수가 나에게 까다로운 빌드 대신 상대적으로 편한 빌드를 써서 이길 수 있었던 것 같다. 3대0으로 이길거라고는 나 외에는 아무도 믿지 않았다(웃음). 3대0으로 이겨 그 사람들에게 복수한 것 같다(웃음).

* anistar님에 의해서 게시물 복사되었습니다 (2007-04-02 12:22)
* 퍼플레인님에 의해서 게시물 복사되었습니다 (2007-04-09 15:38)



rinizim
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07/04/10 02:59
1. One Zealot and a Dragoon

_____'One Zealot and a Dragoon' takes the form of typical One Gateway play. Kang Min had shown us this technique many times in the past; first Zealot barricading a ramp, and first Dragoon chasing away the scout Overlord. But, this type of playing style was hardly found after double Nexus became common. Protoss players started to garner as many Zealots as they can, and strived to perfect the timing of pushing Zerg with speed/attack+1 upgraded Zealot, for this build was the most widespread build. (A build that solely focuses on Templars to counter everything Zerg has to offer)

_____The beauty of this build is, no doubt, harassing the opponent aiming for that calculated timing with speed/attack+1 upgraded Zealots, and the swift transitioning to Teamplars. The downside is, however controversial, that there is nothing to scare away the Overlord(it hovers over Protoss base for a significant period of time) due to massing Zealots. Also, since Forge is built as a barricade near the entrance, if Zerg catches the timing Protoss starts the attack upgrade, he can easily speculate the push timing.

_____Kim Taekyong's first savvy would be(distancing himself from the typical Zealot pushing build, and)

-utilizing one zealot and a dragoon after double Nexus.

Just like a one Gateway play would turn out to be, after warping a cannon in the frontyard, (Protoss would) warp a Zealot from the Gateway, and as soon as the Cybernetics Core is warped, a Dragoon would soon follow. While carefully processing all data the scout probe sends back, he'd utilize Zealot(s) either to make a feign harrassment with one Zealot, forcing Zerg more sunkens and Zerglings, if the Zerg economy seems to grow too rapidly; or to stop Zerglings from penetrating, and to defend against such similar raids (It'd be just as good to pump out more Zealots, if the situation calls for them). Upon completion of warping Cybernetics Core, the Dragoon will take down or chase away Overlord, and (the Protoss would) freely play the game out outside of Zerg's vision, already having shut down Zerg's scouting, probably Zerg's most favorable gain in early game.


2. Perfecting Corsair/Dark Templar and the defensive protocol.

_____Since Kim Taekyong focuses on defending with Cannons and few Zealots, many people question whether his build would be countered by Zerg's assault before it transitions to Cosair and Dark Templar. But to think this from a different perspective, as long as a Stargate, an Adun (Templar Archive to follow), and an Additional Gateway are warped, it wouldn't matter if all remnant minerals are to be warped as Cannons (Protoss having went double Nexus). Since all past Protoss players put their life on line for perfecting a build, and are thus stingy in warping cannons in thought they would rather defend with units, in this build, however, the minerals can be utilized in anyway as long as the Corsair and Dark Templar are warped at the right timing (Actually Kim Taekyong builds 3~4 cannons at the very scent of something fishy).

_____Now then, what part do Corsair and Dark Templar take?

If Terran were to build double Command Center against Zerg, he would steadily produce Marines from one Barracks while building a Command Center. But, steady or not, Marines from one Barracks does not amount to much. And if Zerg were to catch that and mass Zerglings, Zerg can raid Terran's frontyard when Terran is about to land the Center delaying the expansion, or just end the game altogether.

In Starcraft original, one Barracks play is nothing short of an act of suicide, but since we're watching and playing Broodwar, Terran can prepare something else for that(Zergling raid).

It is Academy.
Having built Refinery and Academy, Terran would not only effectively defend during such risky timing with Medics and Firebats, but also push forward the Zerg to hinder him from producing Drones to get rich, forcing Sunkens, and from time to time pierce through, greatly debilitating the Zerg.

The Corsair Dark Templar takes on the exact task as the Academy; the Corsair Dark Templar's task to nullify such raids made(by Zerg) while Cannons have held them back, and to eradicate any and all of Zerg's expansions. Also, since two Dark Templars are warped at 2~3 Corsair timing, the Templars will penetrate in any chance they get when Overlords near the entrance are killed. Since this is not a do-or-die strategy, but rather a bridging to ensure the timing when mass production system would set in place, Protoss can be fully satisfied with just having all the tech buildings warped, even if Corsair Dark Templar did not inflict much damage.

-Corsair's Role

Producing Corsair can take many roles; scouting Zerg's current situation, hunting Overlords to trouble Zerg in its count, and etc. But, one more thing I want to say is that Corsairs force the breeding of Hydralisks. Protoss always take much damage due to the cost-effectiveness of Zerg. The most notorious would be Zerglings. Those Zerglings, costing only 50cents per pair, can't be more despised. In addition, when upgraded accordingly, they pose great threat dubbed as imba units and nothing less. Zerg players who dominates against Protoss would usually coordinate the match to a late game, ready his gameplay fit for mass production of Zerglings, and simply crush Protoss with Zerglings and Ultralisks. So for a Protoss, it is much more convenient if Zerg counters with any other units besides Zerglings. But, since the chance of that happening is slim, shouldn't Protoss force it somehow?

Forcing Zerg to breed Hydralisks is simple. Protoss would have to simply warp Corsairs. As long as Zerg isn't preparing to defend Corsairs with Spores all around, Zergs would defend it with Hydralisks. As long as the Zerglings aren't capable of jumping into air to attack Corsairs, Zergs normally breed Hydralisks. (They 'can' breed Mutalisks.)

When Zergs breed Hydralisks, Protoss can warp Reaver, and High Templar; Dragoons are just as good. In any case, Protoss is much better off than fighting against swarms of Zerglings and it raises the probability of gaining more and more of an edge.

=====

This additional note does not in any way reflect Teamliquid.net in whole, but just my personal opinion.

===
Aside from my personal indifference towards PGR21.com, I believe the idea behind the creation of this translation board was nothing shy of brilliance for various reasons. I would not bother to list all of them, but it can't be reputed the translation board would enrich PGR21.com in every aspect possible. However, it was personally disappointing that upon the birth of this translation board the rights to translate top-notch articles were all constrained to this one board in PGR21.com, which in result, hindered the spreading and sharing of Korean eSports progaming scene with foreign community. If the goal of this translation board was to spread the 'good news' to the foreign community(which I firmly believe it was), all this board has achieved so far is stopping the old translators to translate the article to other foreign sites(like myself). So far, I have not seen a single translations done in this board posted in any other popular foreign Starcraft related sites. I will not say this board is just fancying English skills in their own league, because I still do believe(apart from my personal indifference with PGR21.com) that the creation of this translation board was one of the best things that happened in PGR21.com.

I have waited more or less 3 months for the translation of the article written by kimera님. I was given a warning for having translated it on my own and posting in TL.net. I immediately deleted the post, and awaited for PGR21.com to translate it. At that time, I was honestly offended for having to delete such work that took me nearly half a day, but complied in good spirit. I was also confused why there can't be two or more different translators, translating the same article, in two or more different Starcraft communities, but then again I just let it be. But, after three months the brilliant article written by kimera님 is nowhere to be found, either in TLnet or PGR21.com.

It is very ironic how I have this unbelievable amount of sheer respect for all those great writers and contributors in Starcraft community like 사일렌트님, 노동 8호님, 키메라님, and much more, but yet be so apathetic towards PGR21.com. So, it is neither my inclination or my position to offer advice or maybe even this comment for that matter. But, I sincerely wish, out of the general well being of the communities of Starcraft progaming scene, this board prospers.

rinizim.
morncafe
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07/04/10 04:52
I agree with rinizim's suggestion and advice. We may have to consider this in order to communicate with other foreigners who are still playing and loving Starcraft.
퍼플레인
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07/04/10 09:35
rinizim/

I think the whole situation needs an explanation, although it might seem like an excuse after all. First, the article of kimera님 was going to be translated by someone in PGR -or at least that's what I had been notified by that person, which have never occurred since. (He gave it up and translated another one instead.) If you have felt offended, I apologize for that. It was never my intention to offend you, nor was I to depeciate your time and effort put into the translation. In fact I was going to ask you if we could post yours here, then found out you'd deleted it.

We have also waited for TL staffs to qualify a person in chagre of communication with PGR in regard to translation, which is not going very smooth yet, as you might have noticed. If that went well, every article we'd translated would've been posted in TL and elsewhere. That was why I contacted you to notify that we've created a translation board; we're not opposed to personal translations by readers outside PGR, but it wouldn't look very good to have two translations of the same article in one place. Maybe I should have done it myself, but my thoughts have not reached that far.

Thank you for your concern (not to mention the translation) and this was just the kind of feedback we needed from outside PGR.
rinizim
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07/04/11 04:17
I thank you for your thoughtful explanation.
Please, let me be unaffected. And, I hope you don't misunderstand my terse reply as rudeness.

What I aspire as an amateur translator in Starcraft progaming scene are as follows:
1. Freely translating tasteful articles in Korean to English or vice versa, as long as the original writer doesn't strictly forbid the reproduction(translation) of the article.
2. Spreading and sharing insightful(sometimes humorous as in 노동 8호님's case) materials to the foreign community.

PGR21.com's views are as follows from what I understand:
1. Quoting your PM 3 months ago, "Also, PGR21 is entitled to all rights regarding kimera's articles - he recently made it clear to me.", PGR21.com reserves all rights to kimera님's article and thus forbids foreign translators to translate it freely.
2. PGR21.com is seeking resourceful translators in their translation board.
3. It is a waste of resource(or 'not good' to quote you directly) to have two different translations in one place.
4. PGR21.com had some trouble ironing out minor issues in applying the articles in translation board with other foreign sites(not specifically limited to TL.net).

Thus, my questions are as follows, from my inference based on the reply and the pm I have received:
1. So far I have not encountered one single person who would not want their work translated while being fully credited to themselves, original creator. When kimera님 granted PGR21.com all the copyrights, was he aware of the fact that the copyright in question was originally about his article being translated in English, and not just copy-pasted to other Korean sites? (Whatever the answer to this question might be, I still do acknowledge it was right to delete the translation of kimera님's article since I did not get his permission beforehand; the more reason I specifically stated in the translated post that I will be deleting it if any complaints were filed. So, I want to elucidate any misunderstanding, for you did not need to apologize to me for warning me about it, though I was 'honestly offended'. And, by 'honestly offended' I meant, um... 한글로는 섭섭했습니다 정도입니다. So, I apologize if I have not made myself clear on the above reply.
2. Quoting your reply, "but it wouldn't look very good to have two translations of the same article in one place", do you mean it's not good to have two translations of the same article in PGR21.com only, or in any other websites as well, like TL.net? I am somewhat confused if your reply would be latter of the two, because in TL.net there are from time to time two different interview translations done at the same time by two translators. Although I have to agree it is not the most proficient way to handle things, since this whole translation fanfare is out of sheer amateurish delightfulness(in oneself, and in knowledge that I/translators am/are doing something worthwhile), having two translations or more in other websites other than PGR21.com does not pose a great deal.
3. Quoting my replying PM to 퍼플레인님,
"티엘.넷의 항즐이님 인터뷰 읽어보았습니다.
번역 게시판의 글들도 읽으며 매우 좋다고 생각했습니다.
이제부터 PGR21의 글들은 옮기지 않겠습니다.
이번 키메라님의 글과, 번역 게시판 생성 시기가 겹치면서
이런 일이 벌어지게 되어 유감입니다.
삭제 조치를 요구하지 않으셔서 그냥 남겨둘까 하다가,
지우는 게 낫겠다 싶어 키메라님의 번역 글은 지웁니다."
I did not receive a reply after this. Thus, I was only able to reach a conclusion that this is the outcome you expected(reluctantly or not). But, since in your reply above you have stated quote "we're not opposed to personal translations by readers outside PGR"; where does PGR21.com stand on the issue of old translators like myself translating Korean articles into English and spreading it to foreign websites? Do PGR21.com want old translators to become members of the PGR21.com and work on its translation board? Do PGR21.com allow free "copyleft"?(again quoting your pm, though for this argument's sake strictly limited to the copyleft of translation) Do PGR21.com ultimately want all the translations of the articles posted in PGR21.com to be originally translated in its translation board first, and then be spread to other websites? I know these are similar questions altogether, but they are very important for me in deciding what I'd have to do to continue my 'hobby', I apologize for their lack of tactfulness.
4. Was there any other foreign websites besides TL.net, where the discussion about translation and it's copyleft took place? If so, what were they? and if not, did(or do) PGR21.com have plans to effectively convey this translation board to foreign communities, since it is currently limiting the foreigners themselves to act on their own and acquire articles for translation? (Please, correct me if I am wrong about this particular assumption)
5. And, while PGR21.com is declaring all rights of the articles in PGR21.com(if at all), is PGR21.com taking appropriate actions against those articles translated from other foreign websites to PGR21.com? For example, in the case of the interview of nal_draco in sc.gosugamers.net, was there appropriate inquiry offered to sc.gosugamers.net about the permission before translating the article? What does PGR21.com think about these posts below?:
http://ppt21.com/zboard4/zboard.php?id=free2&page=1&sn1=&divpage=5&sn=off&ss=on&sc=on&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=28731
http://ppt21.com/zboard4/zboard.php?id=free2&page=1&sn1=&divpage=5&sn=off&ss=on&sc=on=teamliquid&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=27762
http://ppt21.com/zboard4/zboard.php?id=free2&page=1&sn1=&divpage=5&sn=off&ss=on&sc=on&=teamliquid&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=27098
http://ppt21.com/zboard4/zboard.php?id=free2&page=1&sn1=&divpage=5&sn=off&ss=on&sc=on&&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=27392
http://ppt21.com/zboard4/zboard.php?id=free2&page=1&sn1=&divpage=5&sn=off&ss=on&sc=on&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=27018
http://ppt21.com/zboard4/zboard.php?id=free2&page=1&sn1=&divpage=5&sn=off&ss=on&sc=on&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=26259
http://ppt21.com/zboard4/zboard.php?id=free2&page=1&sn1=&divpage=5&sn=off&ss=on&sc=on&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=29407
Would I not be ridiculous if I were to ask whether these above translated posts were posted with or without permission? In my opinion, the above posts are very personal and were meant to be posted in TL.net and shared with the TL.net members only. And, it literally pains me to see some of them being mocked. But, I am not being fair I know. Theses things happen everyday. For instance, I see tons of Koreans relaying Chinese or Japaneses people's reactions on soccer, ice skating and K1, UFC etc. So, why should the process of translating and the protocols for translators be so inaccessible and stifling for articles posted in PGR21.com? (Again, correct me if I am wrong)

I maybe tedious in demanding answers to all these questions. But, I wish PGR21.com can understand its extremity regarding myself. If it were to be so simple, I might as well just simply be blind and deaf in what PGR21.com has to say about my translations. However, as much aloof as I am towards PGR21.com, I respect its existence. And, I do not want to trespass that. This is something beyond my personal character, because it has to do with people I adore, the original dedicated 'artists'.

I thank you in advance.

rinizim
퍼플레인
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07/04/11 16:05
1. What kimera님 has informed us was that PGR was entitled to all his writings in any forms, therefore to the reproductions as well as the original articles. I figured that your 'honestly offended' phrase was not by any means truly offensive, however, at the same time I do understand what it feels like when the time and effort you put into the work all becomes vain and void. So in the same manner, you need not apologize to me at all:D


2. My answer for this question will be "PGR and any other foreign websites which have agreements with PGR to communicate in terms of sharing translations, such as TL." Thus not all foreign websites fall under such definition, and so far TL is the only place, if I should clarify.


3. We do not forbid personal translations by non-members of PGR. Nevertheless, let me be personal with this issue; I honestly do hope that well-qualified translators like you will join PGR and work on the translation board. We certainly have a heck of beautiful, dedicated and formidable articles and only a few translators to make use of. The purpose of creating this board was to share brilliant articles in PGR with other foreign websites and communities, therefore our ultimate goal is to have articles be translated here first then be spread to other places.


4. The answer is stated in question #2. We also had discussions with GG up to some level, but have not reached any sort of agreements yet. At this point, I have to admit that translation board as of now can be a limitation of acquisition of articles for foreign readers. We only have so many translations, and that sets a bound to a broader range of choices for them. That problem will be solved as we have more translators to work on and figure out how to run the system effectively.


5. PGR does not declare rights to 'all' articles here. The case of kimera님 was a very unique and an exceptional one to us as well. We also ask for the original author's permission beforehand. We suggest that the English-Korean translations by members of PGR have the permission of the writer. However, many of these reproductions are not by the members themselves. They go to other Korean communities then copy-paste the translation that already exists there. For the former, I agree that we need to have a stricter scrutiny. But for the latter, there is hardly any way for us to deal with it.



It is never our intention to make it inaccessible for translators outside PGR, although I must make it clear that I wish that they would join PGR. (Again, this is not the official standing of PGR.) What you want to is dedendent upon your decision. I personally think it will be important to find a way to communicate with non-member translators, for they are the ones that have really contributed to dissemination of Korean e-sports. Their 'sheer amateurism' was in fact more 'professional' than the most, and I highly value their passion and dedication.
infinity21
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07/04/12 11:32
Hi. I’m also a member of TL.net, and a regular translator there. I go by the ID infinity21. Let me start off by saying that PGR’s Recommended section is always a pleasure to read and it motivates me to translate the great threads. ^^

Still, it's a very tedious process to wait for the original writer’s permission, isn’t it? I request PGR’s permission to translate high-quality articles without notifying the original poster, which I feel takes too long and often goes unanswered (for some reason). Of course, full credits will be given to the original writer and PGR. I plan to post the translations on TL.net and SC2.org, as I do with Fighter Forum articles. I hope that this is not too much to ask.
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